Steve you wrote: "If they really understood the dangers, perhaps they would change their behavior. " Why would we think that people who choose to ride w/o gear don't understand the danger? Look at people who smoke cigarettes, for example. There's not an adult in the Western world who doesn't know that cigarette smoking is bad for you. And yet ... millions choose to do it regardless of the danger. Would "education" or "making people understand the danger" change their behavior? People get the message that smoking is dangerous hammered into their heads every day, and yet - millions still do it.Choosing to disregard a known danger because a person thinks "Yes, I know bad things can happen but I am just going to pretend that they won't happen to ME" may seem foolish, but we all do it, in one way or another.This is the foolishness of youth, "the triumph of optimism over experience." I don't think "education" is really a cure for that, most people only get the "wake up call" when they have a near miss or when they lose someone close to them. IOW I think it has to be personal.A spreadsheet of statistics produced by an avowed anti-motorcycle organization is not going to change anyone's mind any more than a slick mailer from the American Cancer Society is going to convince a committed smoker to quit smoking.
Martin--On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:28:51 PM, Steve Smith <shmitty74@gmail.com> wrote:While I see your point Martin, I think that it's important for people to understand quantitatively how much more dangerous it is than driving a car. In my experience, and probably yours as well, there are way too many people out riding with ZERO safety gear on. I think that they would be the target audience for this organization, and those are likely the riders skewing the numbers upwards. If they really understood the dangers, perhaps they would change their behavior.I didn't realize how great the difference was and if I were to guess I'd think that most riders don't know either. Again, not knowing what variables are most prevalent in these fatalities, one is left to guess what situations are the most dangerous from their personal experiences and anecdotes from other riders. Not very scientific though.As Dan mentioned, there is a new study being conducted which will hopefully provide much needed and updated information. With all the societal and motorcycle engineering changes that have taken since the Hurt report, it will be interesting to see what the current trends are.Just my opinion, which is exactly worth what you paid for it. Ride safe my friends.On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:58 Dan Pilcher <dpilcher@cochamber.com> wrote:By the way, there is a modern survey and review being conducted by the University of Oklahoma that has both Federal and private funds, I think. It's the first major study since the famous Hurt report. I saw something about this study recently, perhaps the issuance of preliminary findings. But I can't recall any specifics right now.
Perhaps someone else knows something about this study?
Dan
From: 'Martin Albright' via EMRAT [mailto:emrat@googlegroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 11:24 AM
To: emrat@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [emrat:10346] Not-so-Safe Riding Places--
BTW the "National Motorcycle Institute", despite its friendly sounding name, seems to be an organization that is pretty much opposed to people riding motorcycles.
From the referenced article: "...it would be appropriate to redirect resources to reducing the motorcycle crash fatality rate (the Societal Danger rate). This can include better public awareness programs that educate the population on the extreme danger of motorcycling as well as adding opt-out counseling for successful students of current training and endorsement programs."
So this is not an organization dedicated to improving "motorcycle safety." Rather it is an anti-motorcycle organization whose purpose seems to be to try and discourage people from riding motorcycles.
Further on in the article:
"For those who are genuinely interested in reducing motorcycle crash fatalities we suggest this new paradigm, focusing on societal danger, when applying resources and efforts. When possible, please share the information and ideas contained here with your colleagues and friends. Most importantly, share this information with the mothers and fathers, spouses, significant others, and loved ones of those who are curious about motorcycles. We look forward to the time when more people adopt this new way of understanding. This will lead to a reduction of motorcycle crash fatalities and injuries on our public roadways. This will also lead to much less pain and suffering by people whose loved ones are killed and injured in motorcycle crashes " (emphasis added)
Sounds to me like the "National Motorcycle Institute" is a bunch of finger-wagging nannies whose mission is to provide a "scientific" justification for every parent, spouse or significant other who tells a potential motorcycle rider that "you'll break your neck on that thing!" Next up: the "National Skiing Institute" will be publishing a "scientific" study showing that people who ski are statistically more likely to suffer from cold weather injuries or injured joints than those who sit in front of a TV all day and stuff their faces with pork rinds.
Anybody with a lick of common sense knows that motorcycling is more dangerous than driving a car, or than staying home and hiding under the bed. I'd tell the "National Motorcycle Institute" to get stuffed and to take their "science" with them.
Martin
On Wednesday, November 29, 2017 08:59:13 AM, Steve Smith <shmitty74@gmail.com> wrote:
Here's a link to the source of the data and how it was interpreted. The National Motorcycle Institute is a nonprofit organization that is using science to understand why motorcycling is so dangerous compared with driving.
On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 08:43 Dan Pilcher <dpilcher@cochamber.com> wrote:
I once took a graduate-school course in multivariate linear regression analysis.
When I find the long-lost brain cells that hold information, I'll take a look at the article.
Dan
From: emrat@googlegroups.com [mailto:emrat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Norman Wright
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 8:35 AM
To: Tim Green <emrat@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [emrat:10338] Not-so-Safe Riding Places
here is the article. It probably raises more questions than it answers. The most dangerous place per them is HI where 1/3 of all fatal MV accidents involve a motorcycle. I suppose the high number of scooters and limited parking mat contribute to that.
On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 6:02 PM, Steve Smith <shmitty74@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd like a link to the article, or the study it refers to, if possible. I don't know how to interpret the information without the context of the data.
On the surface I could surmise that the western states have more motorcycle tourists than either NJ or MA, or more bikers to drivers, or less training, or worse emergency response times, or road conditions, etc. I agree that situational awareness is vital to safety, but why less densely populated areas are less safe than high density areas seems counterintuitive on its face.
Thanks for sending this info out Norm, my curiosity has been piqued.
On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 17:16 Norman Wright <lowrtax@gmail.com> wrote:
This month's BMW Owners' News has an interesting article on the safest states to ride in. The article defines safety in terms on fatalities per million population so I suppose one could quibble with that stat, maybe it should be fatalities per MC mileage for instance.
Be that as it may, Colorado ranks 43rd, meaning its in the top ten for least safe places to ride. WY, SD and NV are right there with us. The safest place to ride, New Jersey & Massachusetts with 7 MC fatalities per million people compared with CO's 18.6. Oh, the worst place to ride, SC, my other home, 32 fatalities per M.. Time to move I guess.
What's the bottom line, keep your head on a swivel and watch out for the idiots in autos. The article does not break down fatalities by bike vs car or bike only which would be another interesting measure.
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