Re: [emrat:7162] 3,000 or 6,000 mile servicing??

Oil is a huge topic of controversy. Some say oil is oil, some say ZOMG XXX BRAND OIL IS TEH BEST. Some say change every 3k, some say go to 20k. While I think there is a balance between it all, and talking about Motorcycles I think it all depends on the oil you use and the type of riding you do. If you're doing a lot of actual track days, riding in extremely dusty/dirty conditions, are using an oil with an inferior additive package, or you sit in traffic for hours upon hours a day everyday, you probably want a shorter change interval than someone who only rides the highway and uses a great oil.

If you use a decent oil with a good additive package, with a weight of oil that suits your engine to provide proper flow yet gives you proper oil pressures, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a magical oil or change interval that will somehow extend the life of your engine. In most cases I think you'll end up simply wearing out items that would normally wear out with time and miles.

If you really want to know how well your oil is doing, GET IT TESTED. Blackstone labs and many other oil labs will test your oil sample for wear metals, additive left in the oil, dirt, fuel, etc. This will tell you if the oil you're using is working for your change interval with your riding style in your bike. If something weird shows up in the report, you can either change brands of oil, or manipulate your change interval to suit.

While I think with air cooled bikes you need to be a little more careful with oil selection, as long as you're using a decent name brand synthetic MOTORCYCLE oil (motul, mobil1, redline, amsoil, castrol, among MANY others), change it regularly and use the proper weight you'll be fine. IMO the biggest thing to watch out for is the temp vs weight debate. Many folks think that since air cooled bikes run hotter oil temps they need a thicker oil (IE "I run 20W60 because this thing gets HOT!"). While yes this can help with wear, keep in mind that many places say the majority of engine wear is on startup with cold oil. A thicker oil flows less when cold, thus 'could' cause more wear until the engine is warmed up.

Take for example RedLine 10W40 vs 20W50 motorcycle oil...

10W40:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 14.5 - this is the viscosity (thickness) of the oil at normal oil operating temp
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 92.5 - this is the viscosity of the oil at warming up temp

And now 20W50:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 20.1
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 141

As you'd expect, the thicker weight oil is a little thicker at operating temp, but MUCH thicker at warmup temp (IE wont flow as well). Its said that you want a 10-20 cSt viscosity around your operating temps to provide adequate oil flow. Now lets look at the real high temp specs:

10W40:
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, per ASTM D4741 spec - 4.7

20W50:
HTHS Vis, cP @150°C, per ASTM D4741 spec - 6.1

Yes our air cooled Triumphs can reach this 150C oil temp range, its certainly on the warm side, but it is possible (I've been up at 120C on hot days sitting in traffic). Now, not much of a difference in viscosity right? Sure the 20W50 is a little thicker, but is that little bit worth the extra wear on warmup?

HOWEVER you may be thinking well why not just run real thin oil to reduce warmup wear? If that 10W40 or other oil isn't providing enough oil pressure, THEN you have a situation where you'd want to be running the thicker oil. Many folks say you want around 10PSI per 1k RPM of oil pressure at normal operating temperature. If you've got an oil pressure gauge on your engine it makes it easy, if you don't, well pick one and be done with it ;-) I've heard of people with higher end engines using the thinnest oil possible that gives them the proper oil pressures, and adjusting this as the engine wears. Picking 20W50 vs 10W40 probably isnt going to be the difference between 50k on your engine and 200k. And really, once you hit 100k miles on a Triumph you're going big bore anyway aren't ya?

As for the 3k change, I sent in my last oil sample on my 2009 bonneville, engine had 6400 miles, oil had 4100 miles. The report did have slightly high wear metals, but they stated this was of NO concern due to the engine being so new. Their response was 'try 6k on the next change'. This makes me understand why some recommend an additional oil change at 3k miles. Granted this isnt the end all of knowledge, its something to consider. Now I did do a short change on the next oil, it was more to change weights than to get rid of the metal. I've been running RedLine oil in my car and bike, and on the car they are saying to go to 12k. I've been happy with the reports I'm getting, RedLine really isnt any more expensive than Mobil1, and I like the place I buy it from so I'll continue giving them and the shop I buy it from my business unless something drastic happens. I'll be using a recommended weight of oil (10W40 for me) and changing it at the interval recommended by triumph (6k).

Keep in mind, these are low horsepower modern engines. The oil really probably doesn't matter much. If you were talking a 2k HP drag engine, sure it probably makes sense to be very careful with oil selection. But at that point you've got engineers to help you with your decision ;-)

Wow, much longer email than I hoped. Take all this with a grain of salt, as you read it on the internet. This is just what I've gathered when doing research on oils.

TLDR; Buy a decent name brand synthetic MOTORCYCLE oil of proper weight. Get it tested. Change it when you want to change it.

Let the flaming begin!

--
Tyler Kohler

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Anthony Sean Donnelly <sean1881@gmail.com> wrote:

David,

Many times if you purchase a service plan those mid-service oil changes ARE covered, but best to call and find out.  Many Dealers will refer to these Mid-schedule Oil Changes as an Oil Change Plus service or something along those lines. The dealership covers that I my KTM if I should choose to have it done then, under my plan.   If that is what Erico is covering under your plan, great!

As far as documents go though, that is definitely NOT a Triumph document, but it may well be an internal document of what Erico has chosen to cover for you in your SMP (Service Maintenance Plan).  Again, awesome!

- Sean

On Jun 15, 2015, at 10:59 AM, David Cardwell <limeycardwell@gmail.com> wrote:

Just dug this schedule out that I was given by Erico when I was trying to decide on their 3yr maintenance plan. I went ahead and bought the plan just because you get a loaner bike but I am sure I was told after the first service I didn't need to be back in until 6000 miles? Guess I better call up Luke and ask if the 3000 mile oil change is included as Ive kinda overshot that one by a 1000 :O)

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 7:12 AM, Ross Borgida <rborgida@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for everyone's feedback.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Dan Pilcher <dpilcher@cochamber.com> wrote:

Well put, Sean!  I appreciate your research!

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 14, 2015, at 10:28 PM, "Anthony Sean Donnelly" <seandonnelly1@msn.com> wrote:

Yeah, I don't mean to sound like I am trying to take some high and mighty stance of not doing what makes you feel good.

I was really just trying to make the point that the 3,000 mile thing is terribly outdated and perpetuated mostly by dealerships to some degree and quick lube places.  GM has said that 3,000 mile oil changes are a thing of the past and based on old engine and oil technologies. 

Most synthetic oils are good for at least 10k, many far behind that, which is why Europe recommends 10K oil changes and bike like the Triumph Explorer and others now have 10,000 mile service intervals rather than the 6,000 intervals.

Mobile 1 claims 15k oil change intervals, Amsoil claims 25K?? (Really??) 

I wouldn't go that far myself, but I did go the recommended 9,300 miles as recommended on my KTM with confidence. I figure the manufactures have confidence in these intervals.

But absolutely everyone should do what they are most comfortable doing and what gives them peace of mind.

Being comfortable, confident and at ease while riding is what it's all about! :)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 14, 2015, at 9:51 PM, Doc <docmurdoch@comcast.net> wrote:

I recommend the 3K when the bike is new. Even though the "break in period" is supposed to be 500, I feel it needs another check sooner than later. After that the 3K is a little extreme with todays synthetic oils. But it can also depend on how you ride. If you have a lead wrist like me and prefer speeds that the bobbies don't like, better to service more often for the security that the bike won't do anything odd at high speeds. I always feel like my bikes, cars, etc perform better after a service. I'm sure most of it is mental, but makes me feel better. 

On Sunday, June 14, 2015 at 1:43:31 PM UTC-6, Ross Borgida wrote:

Hi Gang,

So I am approaching 3,000 miles on my Bonneville and am confused about whether I need to do a servicing.  Erico gave me a Triumph service document which says I need to do a 3K service.  However, the Triumph owner's manual states there is a 6K service after the initial 500 mile service.

Do you guys and gals recommend a 3K service or is it not necessary?  I want to keep the bike in tip top shape:). 

Best,

Ross

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